NTU Changes

[Hayoo]

Concept posted on Official Forums for feedback.

I'll be posting the summaries here, and also some new stuff.

This topic will also relate to Urban Outposts, the updated Engineer Cert, and the Adv Tech Cert.

Some work-in-progress diagrams:







Unfinished illustration showing use of ANTs and powercells to recharge silos and AMS.




Unfinished illustration showing supply line feature of the new territories.




Engineer deploys ANT in warpgate to collect NTUs.




Engineer opens ANT trunk.




Engineer removes Powercells from trunk.




...and places them into a vehicle. This creates a buffer of energy reserves so that the vehicle can last longer in the field. The vehicle always drains powercells from the trunk first before draining its onboard capacitor.

The capacitor in vehicles is also necessary to power System Upgrades. These are temporary mini-modules acquired only by Advanced Technicians and placed inside a vehicle's trunk to briefly boost an aspect of its performance or ability, such as detect direction of radar/sensor, reload boost, jumpstart speed, etc. System Upgrades deconstruct after a set time period, if the onboard capacitor is completely drained, or the vehicle is destroyed.




Meanwhile, the Engineer has taken his ANT to a tower to refill its silo




Then goes and refills an AMS capacitor so it can continue supplying heavy equipment in enemy territory.




Engineer then recharges the capacitor of a different vehicle.



Continued in next post...

[Hayoo]

continued from previous post...


Engineer retrieves the last Powercells from the ANTs trunk and manually recharge a vehicle's capacitor...




...recharges another AMS...




...then manually tops off another NTU Silo at a friendly base.

Manually recharging a vehicle or silo takes more time than an ANT. The ANT remains the fastest, most efficient means to recharge an object.




At an occupied TR base, another engineer recharges a lodestar with a low capacitor since it can't self-recharge. The Lodestar itself is recharging a nearby vehicle's capacitor as well.




Sometime after the base becomes friendly, another vehicle sits in the tech plant's SOI to recharge its capacitor.




Meanwhile, the Lodestar has flown off and landed close to a battle in enemy territory. A Thunderer has driven up and is recharging its capacitor.




A vehicle has driven up to a friendly watch tower and is recharging its capacitor from the Repair/Rearm Silo.




Another vehicle is recharging its capacitor straight from a Warpgate. Unlike ANTs, this does not create powercells in its trunk, but merely refills its energy reserves.



Update:

Here's an image of a vehicle HUD showing the location and disposition of the vehicle capacitor bar.




Not shown: concept screen of vehicle recharging at Urban Outpst Rearm Silo.

Not shown: concept screen of aircraft recharging from an airborne Lodestar.

Not shown: concept screen of vehicle and aircraft recharging from Service Platform Deployable Emplacement.

Not shown: concept screen of ANT retrieving NTUs from a destroyed vehicle.

Not shown: concept screen of what vehicle capacitor looks like from inside a ground vehicle.

Not shown: The kitchen sink.

[Hayoo]

Updates: Added some WIP diagrams, will explain later, gotta run.
Updated: Added more WIP concept shots showing all the options for recharging objects.

[Earlydawn]

Thanks for putting me in your shots :D

Airbourne refueling, nice. Very Air Forcy. ;)

Now, a question. Does, say, a harasser refueling from a lodestar drain the lodestar's reserves?

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by CDL-Earlydawn@Jul 19 2004, 05:00 AM
Thanks for putting me in your shots :D

Airbourne refueling, nice. Very Air Forcy. ;)

Now, a question. Does, say, a harasser refueling from a lodestar drain the lodestar's reserves?

No problem. :)

Nope, the Lodestar's ability to recharge other vehicles is seperate from it's own power supply. Even a lodestar with a completely drained capacitor can still recharge another vehicle.

Of course it can't takeoff again, but all one has to do is deploy an ANT near it or use your nano-gun to inject some power juice into it and then you can fly it into a friendly SOI, to a tower/outpost silo, or a warpgate to recharge fully.

[7ruth]

As I always say, good stuff man. The whole concept is solid, of course I'd still like to hear how the kitchen sink works :rolleyes:

How about some interface improvements for ant drivers/lodestar pilots, so they know who needs a jumpstart.

New voice Macros? "We need juice!"

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by 7ruth@Jul 19 2004, 02:41 PM
As I always say, good stuff man. The whole concept is solid, of course I'd still like to hear how the kitchen sink works :rolleyes:

How about some interface improvements for ant drivers/lodestar pilots, so they know who needs a jumpstart.

New voice Macros? "We need juice!"

lol. The sink is is Top Secret. :P

New Voice Macros:

VNF "We need a recharge!" [fuel]
VNU "We need an upgrade!"

When someone says this from a vehicle, a "need" icon will flash over their heads. There will also be location aids on the radar map and cont map for locating things like ANTs, lodestars, service platforms, etc. in much the same way Medics can be seen. Still working on those graphics.

Plus if you're part of a Task Force, finding a recharge source will be much easier as you can notify your unit leader or a command squad member who can look at his new squad interface to see who is driving an ANT, lodestar, or whatever.

[IncomingFire]

this is too much for my little brain to coprehend but the pictures look pretty.....j/k
Nice job I like the ideas

[Hayoo]

Another visual indicator I'd like to add to vehicles, besides the recharging bar, is a panel or two on the back of the vehicle that looks like the ANT's nanite collection panels. Not the nanite particles themselves, but that neet blue animation on the panels.

I'll have to create some graphics for that too I suppose. *sigh*

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by -CDL-ORANGE@Jul 19 2004, 06:07 PM
this is too much for my little brain to coprehend but the pictures look pretty.....j/k
Nice job I like the ideas

Think of it as Vehicles needing power to move.

Vehicles can recharge that power by being in a friendly base, near a friendly tower, being near a deployed ANT...or you can now retrieve NTU Powercells from a filled ANT and carry them around in inventory. You can then use them like repair juice to recharge vehicles, silos, or whatever manually (although this takes longer to do than an ANT). :)

[IncomingFire]

what about the rates of draining as far as the NTU's in vehicles are concerned is increased when a vehicle enters enemy territory, and when in friendly territory the NTU's drain much slower and when on a friendly locked cont the drain is nearly non-existent

[Hayoo]

Interesting ideas. I know Tiome suggested something similar in that Fuel thread. That would be a nice perk to capturing territory, the reduced capacitor drain. Not a bad idea. I'll have to see how I can work with that.

[Earlydawn]

For some reason, I feel the need to request that you can recharge in bases only by pulling up to a repair silo, not just by sitting in the SOI. Makes it feel more immersive.

I'd suggest making the NTU absorbtion grid on the vehicles small. Otherwise I fear it would look distasteful.

And prehaps we should call the repair / rearm silos service silos now, since they have enhanced functionality?

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by CDL-Earlydawn@Jul 21 2004, 06:27 AM
For some reason, I feel the need to request that you can recharge in bases only by pulling up to a repair silo, not just by sitting in the SOI. Makes it feel more immersive.

I'd suggest making the NTU absorbtion grid on the vehicles small. Otherwise I fear it would look distasteful.

And prehaps we should call the repair / rearm silos service silos now, since they have enhanced functionality?

Point 1: I can see where you're coming from but I'm torn on that point. On the one hand it makes sense that a large radius around the silo (within the base) is the point from which to recharge. It prevents drive-by recharging, and it gives that sense of immersion you mention, having to recharge/repair/rearm within a base.

On the other hand, shield recharging takes place within an SOI and there must be a reason the devs did that. It probably saves on the traffic jams too since recharging will be necessary whether the vehicle requires repairs or not. Not many will stock up on powercells (that's like lugging around extra vehicle ammo boxes) so recharging will be more widespread.

So, as I said, I'm torn. A compromise could be recharging anywhere within a base, but not outside the walls. Aircraft can of course land on the pads to recharge as well as repair. Galaxies will just land in the courtyard. Perhaps recharging should require landing instead of hovering like you can to repair or rearm. Hmm. That might cause traffic jams. What do you think?

Point 2: Yeah, the absorbtion grid/s will be small and unobtrusive and won't even light up until they start sucking up a recharge. Those on foot might not even see it, but it will be in such a place that the driver can switch to third person and notice his vehicle is being recharged even if he can't see the recharge bar.

Point 3: Service or support silos sounds good to me. Some might even call them Re-silos because they repair/rearm/recharge. :)

[Hayoo]

Update: New image showing disposition of vehicle capacitor bar.

[IncomingFire]

has SOE offered you a job yet hayoo?

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by -CDL-ORANGE@Jul 23 2004, 02:19 PM
has SOE offered you a job yet hayoo?

:lol:

[Earlydawn]

I would contest that centralized refueling points at a base (silo) create ambush oppertunity and hense, breed strategy. An AMP Station's recharging effect could be explained by the large energy coils in the main room.

How about some sort of compromise? You can refuel at service silos, or at "Refueling docks" attached to the outside edges of the walls if you want "express" service and just need a fill-up and no repairs or ammo resupply.

Oh, and do powercells deconstruct after being expended? Or can you go and fill them up, like an expansion to your "tank"?

[Hayoo]

I would contest that centralized refueling points at a base (silo) create ambush oppertunity and hense, breed strategy. An AMP Station's recharging effect could be explained by the large energy coils in the main room.

How about some sort of compromise? You can refuel at service silos, or at "Refueling docks" attached to the outside edges of the walls if you want "express" service and just need a fill-up and no repairs or ammo resupply.

Oh, and do powercells deconstruct after being expended? Or can you go and fill them up, like an expansion to your "tank"?

I agree with your points, as well as the idea of refueling docks (they would need to be called recharging docks or nodes though). As long as there's more than the two present locations around a base to recharge at, then I think there won't be any traffic problems.

Yes, powercell boxes vanish once used up, much like nano juice boxes are expended once their contents are discharged. Any engineer recharging a vehicle can only recharge that vehicles capacitor.

Once fully recharged, if the engineer has any boxes in inventory left (which he was using to recharge the tank) he can place that box in the tank for extra power. But a vehicle will always expend powercells first and then tap the capacitor. This prevents people from using tanks and what-not as primpary powercell transporters.

By contrast, ANTs do not have capacitors and do not drain their NTUs when moving about. ANTs will also be available for 1 cert point to players without a vehicle. If they purchase a vehicle later, that cert point is freed up again.

[Earlydawn]

Recharging nodes it is, along the outer wall.

The cell then capacitor system makes sense too.

[witt]

I was just wondering what editing program you use to make all of these and they are very very nice. Love the ideas too.

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by witt@Jul 24 2004, 03:48 AM
I was just wondering what editing program you use to make all of these and they are very very nice. Love the ideas too.

I use Macromedia Fireworks. :)

[witt]

Well hats off to you and your great work.

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by witt@Jul 24 2004, 05:12 AM
Well hats off to you and your great work.

Thanks, witt :)

[witt]

I did this is about 2 minutes and with a program i have had for about 2 minutes. :D What do ya think? Very easy but I thought it was a start.

[Hayoo]

That's pretty good. :) The capacitor bar would need to be slightly more aqua so that it doesn't look too much like a player's armor bar. Other than that, excellent. :D

[witt]

Thanks, I guess ill just use your aqua if thats ok by you. I just need some practice with my free software. :D I'm not used to 2D art tho, I used to use Autocad Inventor everyday and wish I was still able to use it...

[bwzman]

Would create great supply missions.

[Earlydawn]

Indeed, I can imagine hitting enemy ANT convoys to steal NTUs for a deprived base.

We need some mechanic that lets us cripple enemy ANTs to we can steal them, or siphon NTUs.

[Hayoo]

currently working on updating territory maps with colored fields and new zone lines.

I'll be using these kinds of maps to illustrate concepts of NTU changes, supply line, urban outposts, and use of deployable emplacements.

[witt]

If the Devs would put this into game I would def stay in the game. Hopefully one of them gets wise and visits your site and gets some ideas.

[Hayoo]

Thanks, witt :)

[Hayoo]

Image from Urban Concepts thread, but ties into NTU changes and Supply Line concepts...

[7ruth]

lol the names ahh end the the "ah" sound, and thier on a continent that won't exist next month :lol:

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by 7ruth@Aug 4 2004, 03:11 AM
lol the names ahh end the the "ah" sound, and thier on a continent that won't exist next month :lol:

For the names, blame Persia, it's from their mythology, which is what the Oshur bases are named for. Plus there happen to be A names in that cropped image. There are about a dozen or more others you can't see. :)

For the continent, I just knew someone was going to raz me for it. Blame Smokejumper, he announced it a day after I finished the graphic. :P So naturally, I have to find another continent or (and I'm not meaning you, 7ruth cause I know you're just joking), other viewers will completely ignore talking about the concept and talk about how Oshur is changed. *sigh* Which is just as well because my screenshots show a green landscape. So I'll probably pick Forseral or Cyssor. :)

[7ruth]

:lol:

[Earlydawn]

So is this concept pretty much finished, or do you have more details / aspects to add?

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by CDL-Earlydawn@Sep 16 2004, 02:01 AM
So is this concept pretty much finished, or do you have more details / aspects to add?

I still have some illustrations to do:

• Lodestar midair refueling
• Pic of capacitor from inside a ground vehicle
• Diagrams showing approximate ranges of vehicles
• Redo the supply line graphics with different cont other than old Oshur

The most important ones are the range diagrams and supply line map. Then I can publish it on the site.

I might do that in tandem with working on Deployable emplacement graphics, or perhaps after I finish those. Dunno, I'm tired today. Too many road trips.

[Earlydawn]

Just bumping this with a thought: Prehaps allow the new BFR NTU siphon to leech from vehicles if the beam is kept on the vehicle long enough?

Additionally, I think the BFRs should be very fuel intensive.

Thoughts?

[7ruth]

Interesting idea Early, I would think they have a good fuel capacity being infused with anchient tech goodness.

Personaly, I've always assumed that NTU flowed freely beneath the the surface of the planet. I just need a way to rationalize why I can sink into the ground at will :lol: , or how vehicle pads eat my tank <_<

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by CDL-Earlydawn@Sep 17 2004, 07:42 PM
Just bumping this with a thought: Prehaps allow the new BFR NTU siphon to leech from vehicles if the beam is kept on the vehicle long enough?

Additionally, I think the BFRs should be very fuel intensive.

Thoughts?

That is interesting. Sure, why not. That'd be kinda funny; a BFR running up to a tank and draining it's fuel then running away firing while the tank is stuck. :)

[FeckinOtter]

Fuel is good, but how exactly did you decide the fuel was going to be drained i.e what rate and does the status and ownership of the territory make a difference to the amount of drain.
Oh and does a plane with no power crash or land?

[Hayoo]

Originally posted by FeckinOtter@Oct 26 2004, 01:37 AM
Fuel is good, but how exactly did you decide the fuel was going to be drained i.e what rate and does the status and ownership of the territory make a difference to the amount of drain.
Oh and does a plane with no power crash or land?

Fuel is drained by movement, so idling tanks won't waste power. It's the idea that Auraxis leeches the nanites back into the constructs from the vehicles as they cross the landscape. I've toyed with the idea that draining happens more in an enemy SOI but that's still up in the air as to how much if at all.

Continued aircraft operation would be governed by the relationship between low fuel and vehicle damage. If the aircraft is in good health but looses fuel, the aircraft lands with a moderate bump. If the aircraft is heavily damaged and loses fuel, the pilot looses control and it crashes.

Drain rates are still being worked on.

[FeckinOtter]

Increased drain in enemy controlled territory would be a nice new strategical add on and would effectively complete the logistics and supplies thing that the territories would have going on, it would also help with the people flying deep into enemy territory to drop a backwater gen, they would have to carry lots of fuel to do so so sacrificing their ability to fight back.

[Hayoo]

Disclaimer

*Ahem* The possibility of PS going to a hybrid Lattice-Territory model is, I have to admit, highly, extemely, depressingly so not gonna happen. It's taken 2 years but I'm finally accepting that the lattice will remain as the only strategic advancement model and any overhauls to include Areas of Influence are too much for a small dev team. :( *cries*

So, instead of publishing an idea that will have anyone remind me how pointless it is to even suggest it, I'm going to only put up versions that don't rely on a territory system. *sigh*

The Changes to NTU:

• Territory no longer governs AMS supply line or NTU drain.
• AMSes will now lose NTUs only when deployed in enemy SOI.
• All other rules apply.

[Hayoo]

Added new diagrams and link to official forums post

[Hayoo]

Upgrade images below are objects from various other games (Total Annihilation, Mechcommander 2, EVE, Tribes, etc.) and are only used to carry across the concept.

[land_leech]

Cool idea. It seems a little impractical though.

[Hayoo]

Originally Posted by land_leech

Cool idea. It seems a little impractical though.

Thanks, but can you provide more details so I know what you mean by impractical?

[Marinealver]

Probibly raises up the learning curve a little too much for some players.

Is there any ideas on how to make cave crystale automaticly recharge capacatiors. I am thinking that the caves should be one NTU rich enviorment like the Middle East would be one Oil rich enviorment. Just another reason to go in the caves besides modules and Biffers.

[acespacer]

are u sure ur not looking for terrerst? lol just a joke.

[Marinealver]

Originally Posted by acespacer

are u sure ur not looking for terrerst? lol just a joke.

No but those "turretist" can get anoying as they jump in one random turret and blats you away ; )

But was just thinking why can't crystals be harvested for NTU's ?

[acespacer]

lol.

[zolop]

Apologizing for replying on a old post, but I really wish they'd implement this. Anyone else here besides me play Battle Isle 2220? Well it had a similar economy where you have Fuel trucks, repair Trucks and Rearming trucks. Its sad that many MMOs don't let players control the economy as it would be interesting (of course no hacking/cheating allowed)

For example Lineage 2 lets the clan that controls the castle in a given area control tax. That means that they can really effect the economy, making the game more interesting. AO has player own cities, shop and a clan tax system, another instance where the players can effect the economy.

I don't see why its such a big issue to add some kind of logistics into PS. It will make it even more cohesive and MAKE players work together for the common goal of a zerg or empire. Sometimes I think the devs want to make PS something entirely different that what makes it unique.

[zolop]

Originally Posted by Marinealver

Probibly raises up the learning curve a little too much for some players. .

So true. Strains their brains too much! My god the playerbase actually has to use 50% more of their brain! I don't know if its possible! (sarcastic)

[zolop]

Originally Posted by Earlydawn

Additionally, I think the BFRs should be very fuel intensive.

Thoughts?

Agree as it makes logic sense (BFR's have more moving parts than any vehicle in PS).

[Hayoo]

For the past year or so I've been mulling over the concept and tweaked a few things. I still need to create the graphics and update the idea's page though.

The latest concepts are:

1) Vehicles only slow to LLU speed when they run out of NTU power. Aircraft would lose the ability to afterburn.

2) I adopted the NTU-emitter idea to allow engineers to deploy a carpet of Supply Zones across the map, extending from warpgates and bases. Imagine a deployed Aegis generator that was visible, but it creates an AMP station-like effect on the map that recharges a vehicle's capacitor as it sits or travels in it. On the map it would appear like the tacticaly display fields, only in neon green. As the campaign progressed players would see fingers of green areas reaching toward targets as Engineers deployed Supply Points to make sure avenue's of advance were well covered with Zones.

A new target for enemies would then be to eliminate these deployables, causing gaps in the supply zones that would drain vehicles as they drove through them.

3) ANTs, AMS, and Lodestars emit Supply Zones when occupied or deployed. Lodestars can recharge aircraft capacitors while in flight but canno rearm or repair them unless landed. ANTs and AMS can recharge vehicles while on the move. This means a player can bring along either of those vehicles with a Tank column and the group can go as far as they like without risking speed reduction. The ANT and AMS would never be subject to LLU speed.

4) Towers would emit a Supply Zone of their own, but only become active if connected through other Supply Zones back to a warpgate, a Capitol, or a base linked to either. Without this connection, towers only provide 50% ammo for ammo boxes.

5) If they added Urban Outposts, these would also act as Supply Points, becoming rally points and places of defense or assault.

As a stopgap, they could add simple terminals, like a radio tower, in various points in the field, at crossroads, near bridges, in mountain passes, or wherever as supply points to capture. Since they are indestructible their possession would be highly valuable to an empire. I would scatter some barricades or boxes around these things for cover.

6) Supply Points, if connected back to a warpgate or capitol, provides vehicle ammunition, much like a repair silo.

7) Supply Points can be upgraded by advanced engineers through a nano gun to be an Aegis shield, cloaking shield, ammo terminal, and healing station (pending medical updates). Conversely, existing Aegis deployables can be upgraded to become Supply Points as well.

8) A deployed AMS emits its own Supply Zone but once it's own capacitor is depleted, like towers, it only provides 50% ammo in boxes.

9) I am still debating whether ANTs convert NTU into power cells that can be removed from the trunk. As much as I liked the idea, I'm guessing No, as the idea is complicated enough already.

10) Drain times are based on mass of the vehicle and whether it is ground or air. The heavier the vehicle the more the capacitor is used when in motion. One example is that a Tank can drive for 8 min outside a zone before its batteries are gone and it drops to LLU speed. Lightnings would last 10min, Buggies would last 12.

Aircraft would drain energy only while airborne. A mosquito could fly around unsupplied for 9 min before losing afterburners, while Galaxies on the other-hand could last 17 due to their extra space for batteries. And so on.

What this does is simulate 'Range," as a Mosquito can travel much further in 9 min than a ground vehicle could in the same timeframe before "running out of gas." And yet a ground vehicle can conserve energy more efficiently than an aircraft as it only drains while in motion.

CONCLUSION

The trick to all of this is making it as smiple and intuitive as possible. The vehicle upgrades may have to be tabled. Their inclusion was really to give people a reason to extend and protect supply lines as they had a vested interest. And I also wanted to reward players for protecting supplies rather than penalize them, such as with a speed-reduction. But losing afterburn and dropping to LLU speed may be incentive enough, as it's merely an inconvenience more than a nerf.

There would have to be several indicators for players to know when they were in a supply zone, about to leave one, how much capacitor they have left, and where they could fill up.