distro battle - help me choose

[myrtar]

i need some linux.

at this point i'm well-acclimated to command line environments of *nix.

what i need now is a desktop gui nix. i'll be using it for the chores - ssh, irc, email, browsing (opera/moz), and documentation (openoffice.org).
install will be to a dell optiplex gx260. i'm not picky about the installation process, but i don't want to spend three hours picking through packages... i have stuff to do.



so let the battle begin.


rhel? debian? suse?

[NeoPhoenixTE]

This can only end in disaster..

[Fragmatic]

I read this thread title as "disco battle"

I don't know much about linux, but some of the gurus at a forum I frequent posted these (split into 3 posts) -

Ubuntu Linux

Recommended for: novice and upwards
Targeted Role: desktop/workstation primarily, but there are those who use it for servers too

Official website: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Linux
Ubuntu Starter Guide: http://ubuntuguide.org/
Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
Ubuntu Forums (official): http://www.ubuntuforums.org/
Ubuntu subforum at LinuxQuestions: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/forumdisplay.php?forumid=63

Ubuntu is a Linux distribution that is based on Debian, and thus has all the good things of Debian, e.g. it's nice apt/dpkg package management system. Ubuntu have managed to smooth out some of the bumps that inexperienced users tend to encounter with Debian, this in combination with the smooth package management makes it highly suitable as a first distribution. Ubuntu has set up a 6-month release cycle to avoid the problem with release cycle creeping very long as in the case of Debian.
The installation of Ubuntu is very straightforward with the very minimum of questions, and performs a good autodetection and configuration of hardware, although in some cases the initial desktop resolution is a bit low, but that can be fairly easily corrected.

Debian GNU/Linux

Recommended for: Intermediately experienced and upwards. Novices might encounter some difficulties with post-installation configuration.
Targeted Role: pretty much any, usually: server or desktop/workstation

Official website: http://www.debian.org/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian
Documentation: http://www.debian.org/doc/
Debian mailing lists: http://lists.debian.org/
Debian subforum at LinuxQuestions: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/forumdisplay.php?forumid=26
Java, NVIDIA drivers, ATI drivers, misc tips, etc guides: http://serios.net/content/debian/ (yes I am a horrible person for plugging my own website :o - but it does contain some good stuff to read and know about)

Debian is one of the first Linux distributions around. It has a great package management (apt/dpkg) which makes software installation nice, quick and simple. Debian focuses on stability and has strict policies regarding the freedom of the software provided. The release cycle of Debian is a bit painfully slow though, which tends to lead to the stable release feeling a bit outdated after a while. There is some discussion going on how to improve this point - the main reason why the release cycle is so slow is that it takes time to make sure all the 15000+ packages work and to not have any release-critical bugs on all the 10+ hardware archtectures Debian supports.

For desktop and workstation use one may want to take some packages from testing/unstable though so it won't feel as outdated. The stable release is very nice for servers, but if the current slow release cycle continues, even there one will eventually feel the staleness.

The installation of Debian was once in a time infamous for the amount of questions presented in the installer. That has been pretty much fixed now. Even novices should be able to go through the installer without problems, but there are some post-installation configuration issues that tend to occur which is why I wouldn't recommend Debian for the novice that wants to everything to Just Work(TM) after the installler has done it's part.
The size of the installation is very much in your hands, if you want a slim system just pick and choose the things you want. Also from the other side of things it is easy if you want a desktop installation without having to bother with choosing packages yourself, just check the "Desktop Environment" option in the installation when you get to that point.

Documentation is extensive, but the format of it is not very much adapted to the "impatient novice".

CentOS

Recommended for: System administrators, CS students
Targeted role: Enterprise servers/workstations
Official website: http://www.centos.org/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CentOS
Documentation: http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/


CentOS is a free clone of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) that aims to be 100% compatible with RHEL. If you're studying for a Red Hat or Linux certification, need a test environment for a RHEL network, or just want an enterprise-grade OS without the enterprise-grade pricetag, CentOS is for you.

As CentOS is nearly identical to RHEL, nearly all of the excellent RHEL documentation also applies to CentOS, making it an excellent starting point for someone looking to get into Linux/*nix system administration.

[Fragmatic]

Gentoo Linux

Recommended for: Novices who don't mind reading and up
Targeted Role: anything. Can be configured for use as a desktop machine, server, whatever.

Official website: http://www.gentoo.org/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux
Gentoo Installation Handbook (x86 arch): http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml
Gentoo Wiki: http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page
Online Portage Reference: http://www.gentoo-portage.com/


General Description:
Gentoo is a nice distribution which is tailored towards those who want things set up their way. Many of the more popular distributions (RedHat, Mandrake etc.) come with their own ideas of the packages required for a desktop environment, as well as what desktop environment is standard. Much like Debian, you start with the bare necessities and set everything up as you like.

Gentoo Software Management System: Portage
Gentoo's biggest feature (and the one which sets it pretty much apart from the rest) is it's Portage system. Portage is Gentoo's software package system, which by default will install applications by downloading their source code and compiling it. This can be downright painful for users on slow systems, as some of the larger packages (ie., the X windowing system, or the GNOME desktop system) and their dependencies can take days to compile.

However, this mode of operation is Gentoo's strength. Experienced users can easily create repositories and variants of software packages by creating ebuilds. An ebuild is the actual file that directs Portage as to what actions to take to compile and install your software. Using ebuilds, one can have many flavors of the same software, such as different combinations of patches, and different compilation options.

Attributes of Portage:
Another thing that stands out about Gentoo's Portage is its completeness. Its monstrously huge, and you're almost garunteed to find the peice of software you're looking for within. Installing software is a simple matter of 'emerge {package_name}' Much like other, more mature package management systems (such as Debian's apt), Gentoo's Portage does full dependency checking and conflict warning. Using a convenient keyword system, Portage can be directed as to what dependencies and capabilities you generally want in the software packages you install. (make.conf's USE keywords)

(For example: you can have software which has support for both Gnome and KDE compile with only Gnome support because you don't use KDE. This results in less compiled code, and your software only has just those features that you need.)

Gentoo: Installation
To the new user, the most interesting aspect of Gentoo is its installation.

Yes, you heard right. The installation.

In most other distros, there is usually a setup or installation procedure that will help you choose the installation destination (disks and partitions) and do a lot of the mundane for you.
With Gentoo, you do everything yourself within a minimal Linux environment, with the aid of the Gentoo Handbook. You manually set up the partitions/disks, and you set up everything from bootloader to the default services.

Installation can be done from 3 "stages":

Stage 1: You start with nothing but pure source code for even the most base of software needed for the system, and compile everything from square 1. (This is called "bootstrapping".)

Starting from this stage allows you set Gentoo's architecture to specifically match what you're running, ie., Athlon XP or Pentium 3

Stage 2: You start with a decent chunk of what you need precompiled, but still need to compile stuff.
You can also do the option stated above at this stage, if I recall correctly.

Stage 3: You don't want to waste any time compiling anything, and want the system set up as soon as possible; using a Stage 3, you simply "unzip" (untar) the entire system to disk.

Using a Stage 3, you can complete your Gentoo installation in less than 15 minutes. The disadvantage is that you cannot change Gentoo's architecture, and other niggling details that provide tiny little optimizations. With today's processor, there is no big difference using a Stage 3 or Stage 1, unless you're using the 64 bit architecture, of which I am not knowledgeable enough on to comment about


Trust me, if you're a novice in Linux architecture, after you're done going through Gentoo's installation procedure, you may learn a thing or two about how a Linux system works. (Well, at least Gentoo. :D)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gentoo Ricers
I will take the opportunity here to address the outrageous performance claims of some over-enthusiastic Gentoo users, which have lead to the creation of this site: http://funroll-loops.org/

Since Gentoo allows you to compile from scratch, you can set compilation options within Portage's config files which make optimizations to the compiled code. Unfortunately, some folks have been claiming that these optimizations result in huge speed gains. The truth of the matter is that you will only notice a small difference in application speed. Also, some of the optimizations that these folk apply to the code can lead to unstable applications, resulting in a pretty much unstable system.

Since Gentoo lets you do what you want, starting from pure source code and leading up to a general Linux system, you're free to do what you want to it, whether or not your actions will detract from the stability of the system as a whole. Folks who simply abide by the suggestions of the Gentoo Handbook should be fine, while others (like the fools being ridiculed in funroll-loops.org) will search and collect a ton of compilation options which promise speed increases, but whose real impact will lead to overall instability.

Well, hope that this has been informative.

ArchLinux

Recommended for: System administrators, experienced Linux users
Targeted Role: I say server, though you can use it for whatever you want.
Official website: http://www.archlinux.org/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlinux
ArchLinux Wiki: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page


General Description:
ArchLinux is a Linux distribution that adheres to the same spirit as Slackware and Debian: Keep It Simple, Sir. ;) Its a very slim and bare bones distribution that was created to cater to the experienced Linux user looking for something as lightweight as Slackware, but with good package management. (This is not to say that Slackware lacks good package management, but in its history...well...you know..)

Software Management:
ArchLinux's package management is done by the pacman utility. I have not used Arch and pacman that often, but pacman and its software repository, although young compared to the other older heavyweights, did have all the necessary software for a Linux user to get the ball rolling. The ArchLinux community has increased, and we may see increased numbers and more recent versions of Linux software available through Pacman.

ArchLinux's simplicity makes it an excellent choice for the server role. It has a very simplistic service init setup, and provides a good environment for a relatively secure platform.

Again, this distro should be looked at in the same class as Slackware and Debian. (IMHO)

TinySofa Enterprise

Recommended for: Administrators, and experienced users
Targeted Role: Server


Website: http://www.tinysofa.org


General Description:
TinySofa is a relatively lesser known Linux distribution created and targeting the Linux server platform. Its creator, Omar Kilani, is a knowledgeable *nix veteran who was not satisfied with the existing distributions for the server environment. So he did what most l337 folk do in the open source world: he created his own. TinySofa Enterprise is streamlined, and from its very kernel, its focused on doing the server thing right. Most of the patches that go into the kernels for RedHat Enterprise are surveyed, tweaked, then applied to TinySofa's kernel, so it has the same changes made for RedHat Enterprise, as well as more.

Software Management:
TinySofa uses a package management system based on a combination of RPMs and Debian's apt system. Most of the software I needed for my server setup, I found. But I speak for myself, your needs may be different. It has a small audience of users, but it is well maintained, and you can always seek help directly in TinySofa's IRC chan, where you can usually find someone capable of answering your distro (or even general) questions.

Overall, I'd recommend TinySofa as a solid platform for a custom server setup. :D

Installation:
Pretty much the norm as any distro's install goes. There is a utility called "Disk Druid" which you will use to create your partitions or meta-RAID devices. From there on, you select your target packages and installation pretty much goes on from there.

[Fragmatic]

Slackware Linux

Recommended for: advanced users, servers, hobbiests
Targeted Role: Good for servers and learning linux

Official website: http://www.slackware.com/
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/slackware
Slackware subforum at LinuxQuestions (very active): http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14


Intro (from wikipedia)

Slackware is a Linux distribution created by Patrick Volkerding of Slackware Linux, Inc. It has a policy of incorporating only stable releases of applications, and has a distinctive absence of distribution-specific configuration tools found in other distributions of Linux. Partisans have been known to say, "When you know Slackware, you know Linux... when you know Red Hat, all you know is Red Hat."

Quick Review

Slackware is rock solid and one if not the fastest package based distro out there. So why doesn't everyone use it?

Well it doesn't hold you're hand with helpful gui config tools, its linux in its pure form, no hacked on aids, no graphical installer, no bullshit. Want to learn linux or get a rock solid server going without all that overhead from redhats 'aids', the go for slack.

Be foreworned It's package management is very rudimentary, but once all programs are setup and installed you won't need to touch shit for months on end. No messing around with unnessacary updates every day that break your system.

It is the first and oldest linux distro for a reason. Once you go slack you never go back.

Knoppix

Recommended for: everybodeh!
Targeted Role: for those who need Linux on the run. (And those who want to give the general Linux desktop environment a try.)


Website: http://www.knoppix.org
Screenshots: (Knoppix 3.9) here. (http://www.softpedia.com/progScreenshots/Knoppix-Live-GNULinux-Screenshot-12788.html)
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoppix


Knoppix: What is it?
Knoppix a Linux Live CD/DVD. Meaning that its a full blown ready to go operating system which runs entirely off a CD or DVD. If you've got a Knoppix disc with you, you can run Linux off of any machines that supports booting off CD. To my knowledge, Knoppix is the most complete Live CD distro that currently exists. The CD boasts an impressive suite of software, and the Knoppix DVD (released not too long ago) trumps that. You'll pretty much have everything you need.

Its an excellent choice for novices, once your machine boots off the disc, it will perform all the hardware detection for you automatically, set up your graphical environment and drop you into a full featured desktop environment. Another feature of Knoppix which really kicks a lot of ass is the toram option. Slightly experienced users can specify kernel options before Knoppix commences boot. By specifying knoppix toram as your boot line, Knoppix will copy the whole of the system to RAM. If you've got more than 1 gig of RAM, this is perfect, in that your entire OS and all of its applications now reside in memory. I mean everything. Which results in a super responsive environment. Its fast. Really fast.

Knoppix is considered as the standard Linux LiveCD. Many other Live CD distributions are based off of it. For the Linux user on the run, you couldn't have asked for more. Again, perfect choice for the novice because the only thing you need to do to run it, is stick the CD in your drive and reboot.

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Hope that helps.

[Zsinj]

Bah, Frag didn't mention Mepis. I'm offended. =P

[Rahl]

rhel is meant for super stable needs, so its usually about a year behind other distros. centos is a ripoff of rhel.

fedora is the beta for rhel. In fedora you get a good distro that is supported by redhat and has a huge frikkin userbase. There are tons of addons, howtos and whatnot.

I like fedora best because its easy to manage, reliable and good looking.

After you get it going, look into DAG wieers repository. He adds a lot to fedora, and its easy to setup:

http://dag.wieers.com/home-made/apt/FAQ.php#B

Also, I think I have the fedora core 4 ISOs on my server.

Command line:
locate .iso

[myrtar]

got and burned to -rws, didn't work out for me. can't boot my dell to it. rhel booted, not sure what's up. more news later.


update:
since i'm lazy, i'm just letting the rhel4 install continue. i'll try burning fedora discs from that once it's in.

[Rahl]

Pirate. You're not supposed to use rhel unless you pay for it. There are about 150 updates to rhel you shouldn't be able to get.

Also, rhel 4 is really FC3....old. FC4 is much prettier.

[MVTek]

Ok first off, RedHat for the lose. Not only do I simply hate their distrubition, I think their business model is retarded. I don't care if their headquarters is on the NCSU Centennial Campus.

I personally have heard the best things about Debian (if you're uber) and Slackware.

Are you planning on spending most of your time in shell?

[myrtar]

i do have a license for rhel, and i don't really care what their business model is. i'll try burning fedora discs again later today or tomorrow, but i probably won't try very hard until i can figure out how to back up my evolution data